Brainstorming to Stop Lunging

[Kauf]

I would like to get some brainstorming going for ideas to stop lunging. To further define, stop the upper body from drifting forward specifically on offspeed pitches.

Thanks and I look forward to any and all ideas.

Bob

[Major Dan]

I think recognition is the key factor.
You can adjust your timing with a slight delay in front heel down, but it doesn't do much good if you are swinging at a fastball and the pitcher is throwing a curve or changeup.
One player on our team is a constant sucker for breaking balls.
I asked him what he looked at and he described the height of the pitch and how he tried to swing at the same height.
I asked if he saw the pitcher release the ball. He said " No. Well I see it but it doesn't matter. I'd swing the same way anyway".
Asked if he could tell if a curve or fastball was coming, he waffled.
Obviously to me, he picks up the pitch somewhere on the way in and swings at it based on a fastball speed pitch.
BTW sometimes he doesn't lunge. He just swings before the ball gets there.

[Kauf]

I agree that pitch recognition is a factor, if you know that all fastballs are coming, most likely you will stay back.

What about mechanically though. How can you correct it that way? Thoughts anyone.

Bob

[Vince]

Kauf –
I agree with Mark, you cannot simplify this as a mechanical issue.

Even assuming your mechanics are perfect, if you are “fooled” with any off-speed pitch you will break down … at any age and ability.

Keep working on the hitting values preached here. Quick reaction / fast bat.... balanced, quick.

With a solid foundation quality experience will prevail.

Against most young pitchers, curveballs are highly effective primarily because they are a different "look" for a young hitter. With experience the good hitters will weed out the “bad” curveball pitchers in much the same way as the good pitchers harvest out the weak hitters.

Depending on you and your fellow coaches abilities, I would suggest you just “hasten the experience” for your team by showing them some curveballs in bp. Do this also by letting them know you are throwing a curveball while including some "hanging" curveballs so they can see them and see how FAT they really are.

With reps and time they will find how “easy” and “fun” it is to stay back, balanced and quick while taking good advantage of these mostly bad attempts of an off-speed pitch.

Learning to “sit” on a fastball while still being able to drive a curveball or change-up takes solid mechanics, quickness, and experience(recognition).

BUT (I assume this shows my true piching bias) – if the guy is quick, around the plate, and has good command of one /never mind two/ off-speed pitches – your “recognition” and mechanics better be on full alert because a good pitcher will win the lion’s share of victories in a real battle of these skills.

[Paul]

As usual, I have a different opinion.

I DO believe lunging can be (is?) very much a mechanical issue.

These past few days, I have been taking swings again.

This time at a moving ball.

And thought that my swing was pretty good.....until I video taped!!!

And for the first couple of sessions, all of my "best intentions" (previous tee work) was "non existent".

Right now I have developed only two hitting absolutes.

One of which is that ove the heell (front toe touches) comes down ther can be absolutely no further movement of the hips forwards.

I believe this is the biggest reason for lunging.

Because players continue to "slide" their hips forwards when fooled as opposed to delaying the rotation.

I have actually (without realizing it) shown this isna past clip of Giombi (spelling?).

And it even goes further than that (mechanical issues).

One thing about a 55 year old trying to improve his swing, same as a 10 year old trying to improve his swing, so I can "identify" but have the advantage (I hope) of understanding what need to be done (body movements) and then figuring out how to do it (which is the real "Holy Grail").

There is much info that I have (and hopefully more to be "discovered") that I need to present in this forum.

Only problem is time and energy.

[Kauf]

This is for my swing, not for a team that I coach. Old habits are hard to break. For the most part I had in years past limited my lunging. In HS I was a bad lunger, but by collage and post collage I had controled it. (Don't have a clue how)

In the league I play in now, 35 and over, there are many pitcher who can't break glass, not only with their curve ball (gravity) but also with their straight stuff (can't call it a fastball).

I agree with Paul, that after my stride, my hips are still going forward and I have been trying to brainstorm to find out a way to stop it. I have not been video taped but I have a hunch that my lead leg is caving (knee bending and not bracing).

One of the problems with playing when you are older (I don't know if forum members consider 38 old) but there isn't time for batting practice so all of my experimentation is in front of a mirror, the SETPRO batspeed computer and in my mind. What I am going to try in tonights game is to have my first movement be a sitting movement followed by my stride. My hopes are that I can eliminate as much of the linear movement in my swing as possible. Interesting enough, this slight sitting movement before the stride when using the batspeed computer gave me a pop of about 2 - 3 extra mph.

Comments please.

Bob

[Major Dan]

Bob-
It is not enough to just stride. You have to catch you weight on the stride foot or stride to balance as I think our pseudo-science hitting guru Mike Epstein calls it.
The front knee buckling or drifting suggests that you are putting your stride foot out but with your weight on the back foot.
I have had better luck stepping onto the front foot (50%+ to the front) then into balance. Back to forward to middle. Some say weight goes back then to middle. If you are finding the middle as you come forward and your swing starts, your hips drift.

Maybe the best way to think about this is that it is not the feet but the hips/core that do the moving. What position do your feet/knees have to be in / what type of balance do you need in order to turn your hips.

It comes back to why Paul keeps saying you need to hit correctly no-stride before you can stride correctly (my paraphrase).

[Paul]

Based on everything that I know (which sadly is not all that much), the only hope you (I) have (had) of correcting lunge is to go to no stride.

And work at no stride until I learned (still learning) how to rotate to swing.

The stride will "mask" your proprioception of hip slide.

In other words, you will not be able to tell if your hips are sliding or not because your stride confuses the sensing of motion.

If it was as easy as doing mirror drills, everyone would be a ML caliber hitter.

Again, one of the advantages of a old fart like me trying to develop a good swing is that I know what I need to do.

The "adventure" or should I say "journey" (with the pot of gold at the end of the road) is that I can understand what I had to do to get there.

And hopefully convey some useful info to others.

Hitting (good mechanics) is incredibly simple to understand what "needs" to happen.

The incredibly difficult part is "doing it".

Or even harder is teaching someone else how to do it.

I went (still going) through this process with pitching (trying to do it and teach it) and it took me away from understanding the hitting process.

Now I am devoting the same efforts to understanding how the body most effectively swings a bat.

And have (will continue) to learn how to do/teach it.

I have never been a real "subscriber" to the saying "if you can't do it, you can't teach it".

Mainly because most who "can do it" have no clue of how they do it. It even less capable of teaching how to do it.

I DO believe that knowing HOW to do it (swing) and then being able to actually do it is critical to understanding how to teach it.

I will as time/energy permits explain how I would teach swing mechanics (not the same as teaching hitting, i.e. hitting strategy, etc).

I think (hope) you will find it as enjoyable and interesting as I have found it humilating (and fun).

And I do miss my son Andrew so much....

[This message has been edited by Paul (edited 08-09-2002).]

[Paul]

A few more thoughts.

I used to be an "ardent" stride teacher (3 years ago).

In other words I thought no stride hitting was the work of the hitting devil.

Intended to produce "quick fixes".

And hitters who would never maximize their potential.

I now believe totally opposite. That no stride can be a vital step in developing a hitters potential IF, and I repeat IF the player has not learned how to "arrest and rotate".

And uses no stride as part of the teaching/learning process is totally consistent with backwards chaining.

The players that make in to their max potential do so through luck and hard work.

Somehow (hard work) these players learn how to "arrest and rotate" as they trasition from stride to footplant.

I still believe that the stride can produce more bat speed (power) than no stride (all other things being equal).

And that a stride MAY be helpful as a timing device.

But I also believe that there would be many more successful hitter if they junked their stride and learned how to rotate properly.

If you learn how to roate properly, that in itself solves the "top hand lag" problem.

Which as far as I am concerned is the single most destructive problem hitters must deal with.

[This message has been edited by Paul (edited 08-09-2002).]

[lynnz]

Paul,
what do you mean by "arrest and rotate"?

My son went to a no stride hitting style this year and improved considerably toward the end of the season. He struggled a little at first.

Paul, others,

I did it the other way Paul, I started some tee work and then went to a moving ball working on no-stride, mixing in striding.

Letting the ball get deep, translation "hip slide". Left handers, and almost every kid I witnessed at the cage did this. Hit on the slice. Edgar is a master.

The problem is if you do this, slide the hips let the ball get deep there's only one thing you can do with the ball, hit/slice it the other way. You can 'slide the hips' as hitting stragedy.

With a 'good swing' (What I felt was a good swing, ), driving the outside pitch was nothing more than a extremely 'slight' feeling of adjusting the swing timing. Hit it where it's pitched. My body/eyes/hands felt/saw the movement and location.

Whenever I purposely tried to hit the other way, timing/mechanical problems arose. The swing felt terrible, let the ball get deep. Except when I used the hip slide, let the ball get deep, knowing I was only going to hit the ball one way.

One of the first things I remember looking at was how all amatuer hitters hips slid rather than turned.

Shawn

Lynnz,

Paul can give you his perspective.

Here's a clip that may help the question.

http://members.aol.com/bellshw2/clip0036.mov

This is why I thought Epstein had something to add. Why I think/thought his tape and approach has value.

And for the long time members what Dixon believes, activating the body/muscles from head to toe.

I also have seen Nomar trying to rotate and stride. Yes he had more power, but he also had other problems with pushing off and/or striding and swinging.

Shawn

[This message has been edited by Shawn (edited 08-09-2002).]

[Paul]

I may have confused people.

I worked previously (about 2 months worth of swing) using a Swing-A-Way to figure out that I needed to go to no stride and learn how to rotate.

Once I fugured out that no stride was the way to go to establish a foundation, I did at least 2000 swings on the Swing-A-Way with no stride.

I just started fooling around with a moving ball just to see how difficult it would be to "tranfer" what I thought I had learned on the tee.

The progressions should be:

1. Master no stride-rotation dry swings

2. Master no stride-rotation tee/SoloHitter/Swing-A-Way

3. Master no stride-rotation side/soft toss

4. Master no stride-rotation off a pitching machine (repeatable speed and location).

5. Master no stride-rotation short toss

6. Master no stride-rotation BP/live arm

7. Master no stride-rotation practice games (low pressure game environment)

8. Master no stride-rotation "real game"


And once through this cycle, repeat this sequence at least twicw a week.

And as the amount of stride to suit your "taste".

Do this for two years and I guarantee hitting satisfaction...

There are very few "short cuts"

There is much, much more that I have to say, show about this topic.

It ties directly into top hand-elbow issues.

[This message has been edited by Paul (edited 08-09-2002).]

[Paul]

"Arrest and rotate".

Just a poor attempt on my part to emphasize the importance of stopping any "hint" of hip slide (hips moving twards pitcher).

If done "properly", the shoulders, head will move backwards.

Here in lies another "SETPRO secret".

Paul, Lynnz,

Before I tried no-stride I struggled to swing between 70-76 mph. Lot's of effort.

After working on no-stride I was struggling to maintain 88 mph, and experiencing what I felt was a much easier, quickier, swing. Hard to do, exhaustion soon kicked in. This was almost 1 1/2 years ago, if not more.

Why most go no-stride, 'trust the hands'. It completely simplifies the problem of the body/hands working together.

The body can pull and affect the hands/bat (swing) in numerous ways, follow the bodies momentum, many bad ways also.

Shawn